Sorry for the information dump, and also that was a coloquialism, “I’m not playing your game”, so I can understand why that would not be a good phrase to use. I will do my best to go more “step by step”. Understand, in the context of what I meant, the way that you frame the conversation, “give me verses from the quran that allowe muslims to rape children and murder innocent people”, is not the entire picture. It’s more about how the Prophet interpreted what was in the Quran. Plenty of people can twist religions (e.g. Christianity); however, the interpretation of the Prophet AND his actions should stand as the authority on Islam. If the interpretation of the Prophet is wrong, then what hope is there for Islam? For his interpretation, you must consider how he acted throughout his life. This is what Jesus meant when he said you will “know them” (i.e. false prophets) by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:15-20) This is why I included the big dump of history above, including teachings from Lord Jesus and his brother, James the Just. Read the entire New Testament; if you hold Islam, i.e. the Quran, the Prophet and Islamic history, up in the light of it, you will see that they burn. Bless those who persecute [you], bless and do not curse them. (Saul “Paul” of Tarsus, Pharisee, Persecutor of the Church AND convert, Romans 12:4, NKJV) 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If possible, on your part, live at peace with all. 19 Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” 21 Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good. (Saul “Paul” of Tarsus, Pharisee, Persecutor of the Church AND convert, Romans 12:17-21, NKJV) <— That man was “conquered” by the love of God through a personal encounter with the risen Jesus Christ WHILE he was on his way to Damascus to arrest and imprison Christians. He also oversaw the death of the first Christian martyr. Tell me, why did he switch from being a rockstar to a fugitive? 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Lord Jesus, Messiah of Israel, Matthew 5:43-48, NKJV) <—- For the purposes of our exchange, can you provide verses of the Quran which are equivalent to the ones above? (You are right in that I am not well versed in it.) Thanks, and Alsalam Alykum
Matthew 7:15-20 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (NKJV)
Fruits of Islam and its founder:
Sahih Al Bukhari 5158.
Sahih Muslim 3480-3481.
Sahih Al Bukhari 5080.
Sahih Al Bukhari 3411.
Sahih Al Bukhari 5825.
Not playing your game on the terms YOU define. Trying to rip the Hadith away from the Quran is like trying to rip the Epistles away from the New Testament.************************ THE REAL QUESTION ************************ The question is NOT just what is IN the Quran; the question is… What was the interpretation of its Prophet?? **************************************************************************However, if you’re still itching, just read the Surah. “Slay the people of the book wherever you find them.” “Slay the polytheists wherever you find them.” And just why are we considered polytheists to be killed? Surat I Tawbah calls Jews and Christians disbelievers because of their beliefs in the Son of God. 9:29 “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” NOTE: 1. Jizya = State Tax for an Islamic state 2. The context is within an Islamic state. What is the Goal of Islam? Based on its conquering history, conversion through violent or non-violent means…whatever works. 9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it). LOGICAL CONCLUSION: If we hold to our Christian (or other) beliefs, we will eventually be all conquered and persecuted with Sharia and taxes. ** THE DEVIL’S ADVOCATE ** But let’s forget my logical reasoning and play the devil’s advocate for a second. Pardon the pun. ASSUMPTION: Islam is a religion of peace, and it is my interpretation that has failed miserably. HYPOTHESIS: Going back through history, we should find evidence that progressively, Islam promoted peace from the beginning with Muhammed, up through the 20th century. (See below in the next post.)
Sorry for the information dump, and also that was a coloquialism, “I’m not playing your game”, so I can understand why that would not be a good phrase to use. I will do my best to go more “step by step”. Understand, in the context of what I meant, the way that you frame the conversation, “give me verses from the quran that allowe muslims to rape children and murder innocent people”, is not the entire picture. It’s more about how the Prophet interpreted what was in the Quran. Plenty of people can twist religions (e.g. Christianity); however, the interpretation of the Prophet AND his actions should stand as the authority on Islam. If the interpretation of the Prophet is wrong, then what hope is there for Islam? For his interpretation, you must consider how he acted throughout his life. This is what Jesus meant when he said you will “know them” (i.e. false prophets) by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:15-20) This is why I included the big dump of history above, including teachings from Lord Jesus and his brother, James the Just. Read the entire New Testament; if you hold Islam, i.e. the Quran, the Prophet and Islamic history, up in the light of it, you will see that they burn. Bless those who persecute [you], bless and do not curse them. (Saul “Paul” of Tarsus, Pharisee, Persecutor of the Church AND convert, Romans 12:4, NKJV) 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If possible, on your part, live at peace with all. 19 Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” 21 Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good. (Saul “Paul” of Tarsus, Pharisee, Persecutor of the Church AND convert, Romans 12:17-21, NKJV) <— That man was “conquered” by the love of God through a personal encounter with the risen Jesus Christ WHILE he was on his way to Damascus to arrest and imprison Christians. He also oversaw the death of the first Christian martyr. Tell me, why did he switch from being a rockstar to a fugitive? 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Lord Jesus, Messiah of Israel, Matthew 5:43-48, NKJV) <—- For the purposes of our exchange, can you provide verses of the Quran which are equivalent to the ones above? (You are right in that I am not well versed in it.) Thanks, and Alsalam Alykum
Yes, I document the history of the “poor unbelievers” above across 13-14 centuries of Islam spreading. It doesn’t look like we remember the same history? Jesus also said of the commandments in Mark 12:29-31… 29 Jesus replied, “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! 30 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (NKJV) and in Matthew 22:40… 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” (NKJV) That sounds great about the neighbor thing, because I am not just a Christian; I am a Jew. Please tell me if it is safe to move back to Israel these days…
I’m not an Israelie citizen. Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (NKJV) So… 1. Define for me “innocent people”, and please, no muruna. 2. I’m still waiting for Quran verses that command you to love your enemies AND your neighbor instead of solely judgements against treating other Muslims poorly.
you want verses? OK, here’s verses from Quran and Hadith and Surah. Muslim (8:3309) – Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given. Other references are Sahih Bukhari 3896, 5158 and 3311. Bukhari (62:18) – Aisha’s father, Abu Bakr, wasn’t on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions. Muslim (8:3311) – The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad’s house (something to play with when the “prophet” was not having sex with her). Bukhari (6:298) – Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her. Muslim (8:3460) – “Why didn’t you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?” Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an “older woman” instead of opting to fondle a child. Additionally; Qur’an (65:4) relates rules for divorce, one of them being that a waiting period of three months is established to determine that the woman is not pregnant. But the same rule applies to “those too who have not had their courses,” meaning girls who have not begun to menstruate. (In our opinion, this would have been a great time for Allah to have said something else instead like, “a real man is one who marries an actual, grown woman”… but that’s just us). Thanks to Muhammad’s extremely poor judgment (at best) and explicit approval of pedophilia, sex with children became deeply ingrained in the Islamic tradition. For many centuries, Muslim armies would purge Christian and Hindu peasant villages of their menfolk and send the women and children to harems and the thriving child sex slave markets deep in the Islamic world. When it comes to child marriage, contemporary clerics warn fellow Muslims against succumbing to the disapproval of the Christian West: “It behooves those who call for setting a minimum age for marriage to fear Allah and not contradict his Sharia, or try to legislate things Allah did not permit. For laws are Allah’s province; and legislation is his excusive right, to be shared by none other. And among these are the rules governing marriage.” The Ayatollah Khomeini, who married a 12-year-old girl, even gave his consent to using infants for sexual pleasure (although warning against full penetration until the baby is a few years older). In April, 2010, a 13-year-old Yemeni girl died from injuries suffered to her womb during “intercourse”. Some clerics show relative mercy on underage girls by advocating a process known as “thighing” (also known as child molestation in the West). According to a recent fatwa (number 23672), an imam answers this question: “My parents married me to a young girl who hasn’t yet reached puberty. How can I enjoy her sexually?” by telling the ‘man’ that he may “hug her, kiss her, and ejaculate between her legs.” A prominent member of Saudi Arabia’s highest religious council said in 2012 that girls can be married “even if they are in the cradle,” then went on to explain that intercourse may occur whenever “they are capable of being placed beneath and bearing the weight of the man.” Muhammad’s penchant for girls so much younger than him was such that at least two of his father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Omar, the first two Caliphs) were actually younger than him as well. This disappointing pattern is very much at odds with the sort of sexual discipline that one might expect of a true “prophet of God.” And, about the murder of innocents…. For conversion; Qur’an (8:39) – “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran Qur’an (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Suras 9 and 5 are the last “revelations” that Muhammad narrated – hence abrogating what came before, including the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -“There is no compulsion in religion…”. Qur’an (9:5) “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them…” Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. (See below). The Quran thus sanctions violence as a means of coercing religion. Qur’an (9:11) – (Continued from above) “But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion” In conjunction with the preceding passage, this confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. Quran (9:56-57) – “And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste.” This refers to people living with the Muslim tribe who may not be true believers, but must pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear? Qur’an (2:193) – “And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.” The key phrase here is to fight until “religion be only for Allah.” Qur’an (3:83) – “Are they seeking a religion other than Allah’s, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?” But didn’t the earlier verse (2:256) state that there is “no compulsion in religion”? This contradiction is resolved by abrogation – where the later verse supersedes the earlier one. And just to kill; Quran (2:191-193) – “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing… but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)” (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to “fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you” leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah’s rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word “persecution” by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution – “idtihad” – and oppression – a variation of “z-l-m” – do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, “fitna”, can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned “until religion is for Allah” – ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief. Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.” Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot. Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.” Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to Allah’). Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today’s suicide bombers. Quran (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…” Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward ” This passage criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah’s eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn’t mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man’s protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle). Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense? Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement” Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.” Quran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah” Some translations interpret “fitna” as “persecution”, but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there – just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad’s intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until “religion is only for Allah”, meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that “Allah must have no rivals.” Quran (8:57) – “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.” Quran (8:67) – “It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land…” Quran (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.” Quran (8:65) – “O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight…” Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.” According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion’s Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert. Quran (9:14) – “Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people.” Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even “healing” the hearts of Muslims. Quran (9:20) – “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The Arabic word interpreted as “striving” in this verse is the same root as “Jihad”. The context is obviously holy war. Quran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” “People of the Book” refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam “superior over all religions.” This chapter was one of the final “revelations” from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad’s companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths. Quran (9:30) – “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!” Quran (9:38-39) – “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.” This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell. Quran (9:41) – “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.” See also the verse that follows (9:42) – “If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them” This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians). Quran (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.” Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that unbelievers are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today’s devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith. Quran (9:88) – “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.” Quran (9:111) – “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.” How does the Quran define a true believer? Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.” Quran (17:16) – “And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.” Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is “utter destruction.” (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam). Quran (18:65-81) – This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with “special knowledge” who does things which don’t seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would “grieve” his parents by “disobedience and ingratitude.” He was killed so that Allah could provide them a ‘better’ son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).) Quran (21:44) – “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?” Quran (25:52) – “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness…” “Strive against” is Jihad – obviously not in the personal context. It’s also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse. Quran (33:60-62) – “If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.” This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered “merciless” and “horrible murder” in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to “fight in the way of Allah” (3:167) and hence don’t act as Muslims should), those with “diseased hearts” (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and “alarmists” or “agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad’s biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today’s terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah’s eternal word to Muslim generations. Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord… So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah’s Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)… If it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.” Those who reject Allah are to be killed in Jihad. The wounded are to be held captive for ransom. The only reason Allah doesn’t do the dirty work himself is to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. Quran (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,” Quran (48:17) – “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.” Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means ‘spiritual struggle.’ Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell. Quran (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves” Islam is not about treating everyone equally. This verse tells Muslims that there are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for ‘hard’ or ‘ruthless’ in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as ‘painful’ or severe’ to describe Hell in over 25 other verses including 65:10, 40:46 and 50:26.. Quran (61:4) – “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way” Religion of Peace, indeed! The verse explicitly refers to “battle array” meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9): “He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.” (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought. Quran (61:10-12) – “O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of ‘Adn – Eternity [‘Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success.” This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions (see above). It uses the Arabic word, Jihad. Quran (66:9) – “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.” The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites” – those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such. I could go on, if you’d like.
So, I’m not sure what you are getting at when you cited Ezekiel 9:5-7 without context? The topic of our discussion is NOT the judgement of God; it is personal conduct. Don’t tell me every single militant is hearing from God. No, their families are being paid handsomely. Now what were these cruel acts the Israelites committed deserving of death? Let’s see… Read Ezekiel 9:9-10 (which comes just a few short verses afterwards). 9 Then He said to me, “The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!’ 10 And as for Me also, My eye will neither spare, nor will I have pity, but I will recompense their deeds on their own head.” (NKJV) No one is above reproach or God’s judgement, not even Israel. Yet in your definition, you would call them “innocent people”? Read more of the context in Ezekiel 8 (which immediately precedes your verses). God was carrying out his justice FOR THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION and he explains why. He found them guilty. That wasn’t a policy. In fact, God gave them plenty of time to repent. Just read Ezekiel 3 and 33. Also, Jesus said himself of “innocent people” in Luke 13:1-5… 1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (NKJV) We all deserve death from God, but continuing to sin exceedingly without repentance brings God’s IMMEDIATE judgement. Moreover, you should always be doing the Law, doing good unto others; however, even if you do these things… you are always supposed to be doing them. It’s not going to win you back points on judgement day or keep you from hellfire. Jesus warned us that God can’t be bribed by you doing what you’re already supposed to be doing. Luke 17:7-10 says… 7 “Who among you would say to your servant who has just come in from plowing or tending sheep in the field, ‘Come here immediately and take your place at table’? 8 Would he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat. Put on your apron and wait on me while I eat and drink. You may eat and drink when I am finished’? 9 Is he grateful to that servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So should it be with you. When you have done all you have been commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants; we have done what we were obliged to do.’” (NKJV) In Matthew 16:37, Jesus rhetorically asks… Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? You cite Luke 12:49-53 which alludes to Jesus’s death, and the cost of being one of of Jesus’s TRUE followers. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, NKJV) You see, no servant is greater than their master, and Jesus was going to be persecuted and put to death on a cross. HE KNEW IT. The cost of being Jesus’s disciple is persecution (i.e. fire). Luke 14:25-33 proves this when Jesus said… 25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. (NKJV) Matthew 16:24 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. (NKJV. See also Mark 8:34-35 and Luke 9:23-24) In Christianity, baptism (immersion under water) means dying with Jesus (going under the water) on the cross, and rising to new life (coming out of water) after resurrection. Your sin debt is forgiven as one who is dead cannot be held by any debts they had in their previous life. You are free in Christ to serve Him alone to the glory of God. The point is, Jesus jumped on OUR grenade and took our punishment by His own design. We could never take the wrath of punishment we are due from God; however, He offers eternal life to ANYONE willing to repent and place their faith in Him, to the glory of God. * * * * * * I’M STILL WAITING * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1. I’m still waiting for your definition of “innocent people”, no muruna. 2. I’m still waiting for Quran verses that command you to love your enemies AND your neighbor instead of solely judgements against treating other Muslims poorly. 3. Read Matthew 20:1-16 and tell me the meaning. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=ERV-AR <— If Arabic is your first language, this link will be an easy read. Tell me how this story is fair to the workers, and what the wages represent. 4. Then read Luke 15:11-32. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=ERV-AR Tell me how this story is fair to the older son, and who the father represents. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Is Israel killing innocent Muslims? Bad things happen in war. 1. U.N. sent millions of dollars in aid to Palestine in aid. Hamas spent around $30 to $90 million, and poured 600,000 tons of concrete, in order to build three dozen tunnels. Some tunnels were estimated to have cost $3 million to construct. 2. Hamas sets up rocket launchers in the middle of schools and expects the children to “survive” after they fire rockets into Israel, and when they go to “warn” Israel of impending attacks, they target children again by kidnapping and murdering them. No one is innocent; however, some are darn nasty. Anyone who exploits children specifically for purposes of Jihad need to meet hellfire. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * READ my post on the history of how Islam spread from 7th – 20th century, then let’s talk about who was innocent. The church didn’t even start fighting back until after 4 centuries of atrocities by Islam. That’s bloody patient. Israel’s current day activities are NO COMPARISON by even the slightest crime.
What matters is certain beliefs are purely “Islamic”. Because Mohammed married then molested a six year old girl who went to his home still playing with dolls, all Muslims think marrying and molesting little girls as young as six is perfectly normal. I already gave you those hadiths, if you choose to tell me you deny them the only person who believes you is you. Because I know you’re lying as per sharia sanctioned deception law (taqiyya, meruna, kitman, whatever) and if you aren’t than those imams are lying to you because they do endorse these hadiths 100%. Thank the Lord God Almighty that Abraham was NEVER a muslim. Such people didn’t exist prior to Mohammed’s meeting Satan (the Greatest of Deceivers) in a cave. Yahweh is the God of my ancestors, not Allah who hates women and Jews and Christians. Yahweh loves women and chose Marien to give birth to Emmanuel Yehoshua! With the Birth, Death and Resurrection of Yehoshua we are saved from our sins if only we accept Him in our hearts and follow His Law. And His Law is to LOVE all, even our fiercest enemies! Not like Allah’s law to kill, enslave or subjugate non believers. So guess what? I DON’T hate you or any muslim. I love and pity you and pray you find the Gospel of Yehoshua in your heart. Turn aside from the deception of Islam, find a Bible and pray to God for enlightenment to the TRUTH. Only then read the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Then look into your heart and see if you find any deception in their words. If you truly beg God for the TRUTH before you read, you WILL see that TRUTH and know the imams are not being truthful to you when they say the Bible is full of deception and lies. I beg you to try and see for yourself.
I have not provided any Quran verses except for the ones I provided several posts/days ago. * * * * * EXPLANATION MISSING ITS OWN CONTEXT * * * * * * 1. For which Quran verses did you just provide the context/explain? Please properly cite the verses and put the explanation below them. In this way, I can learn from you and your beliefs. 2. I am not sure where you are quoting from now with the Sanhedrin references? Is it the Talmud? Why would you quote from an interpretation of the bible and not the Tanakh or the New Testament itself? Honestly, I cannot answer this question because I have never read the Talmud; it would be better to ask a practicing Rabbi. * * * * * * I’M STILL WAITING * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 3. I’m still waiting for your definition of “innocent people”, no muruna. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 3 4. I’m still waiting for Quran verses that command you to love your enemies AND your neighbor instead of solely judgements against treating other Muslims poorly. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 4 5. Read Matthew 20:1-16 and tell me the meaning. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=ERV-AR <— If Arabic is your first language, this link will be an easy read. Tell me how this story is fair to the workers, and what the wages represent. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 2 6. Then read Luke 15:11-32. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=ERV-AR Tell me how this story is fair to the older son, and who the father represents. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 2 * * * * * * * * * WAIT NO LONGER * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Koran has 164 Jihad Verses of which only a handful represent a Jihad of the mind. An entire list can be found at http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
“i sent you verses from your book that allow to kill childeren and pregnent women it is the only book that allow to kill them ” (Yassine) <— The Talmud is not our (a Christian) book. That is an interpretational book of Judaism, and it is NOT inspired scripture, only man’s interpretation. “another thhing i dont care about jihadist what did do think because in islam it is not allowed to boomb yourself and if you did you will get the hell” (Yassine) <— In Christianity, we are taught to care for and love our enemies. As a Christian, I would hope that you would be praying for those whom you say are not practicing Islam correctly. Especially if you’re offended by their actions. “and if you are asking for the context for your verses you must montion quran context too and when the verse come quran has written when mulims had lots of wars and alah waas sending verses to tell muslims what to do it was the time when christians and jewish made wars on muslims from whole to sides” (Yassine) <— As you can see from the history of Islam and its Prophet above in my former post, Jews and Christians did not set out originally to make wars against Islam. We waited 400 years of conquering, murdering, raping and pillaging by Muslims–giving Islam plenty of time to repent–before we took action in the Crusades. Islam is not innocent; Islam stands condemned. “jihad against those who want to kill mulims not for inneceent people” (Yassine) <—- In Islam, Jihad is justified against people living in the countries of those fighting Islamic militants because the lay people pay taxes to their government. This is why extremists target public places. In fact, in Islam, no one is innocent if they are not practicing the Islam religion as its goal is to subject everyone to Sharia and Allah across the entire Earth. * * * * * Tuesday, 31 July 2012 04:02 Louis Palme (paraphrased) * * * * * 1. Takiyya – Dissimulation about ones Muslim identity. When it is possible to achieve an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible, and lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory. 2. Tawriya – “Concealing”, or “creative lying”. Breaking the intent of an oath as long as you don’t break the semantics. e.g. Suppose someone protests that Surah 1 of the Quran demeans Christians and Jews, because it is a supplication Muslims make to Allah seventeen times a day to keep them from the path of “those with whom God is angry” and “those who have lost their way”. A Muslim might respond, “Surah 1 never mentions Jews or Christians.” He is practicing tawriya, because while Surah 1 does not mention Jews and Christians by name, but he knows full-well that the words “those” refer to Jews and Christians. 3. Kitman – Telling only part of the truth. e.g. Quoting only the few peaceful passages from the Quran, knowing full-well that that passage was later abrogated by a more militant, contradictory verse. Here is an example: “There is no compulsion in religion” (Surah 2:256, an Early Medina) Repealed and replaced later with… “Are they seeking a religion other than Allah’s, when every soul in the heavens and earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?” (Surah 3:83, a Later Medina) 4. Muruna – Use of “flexibility” to blend in with the enemy or the surroundings. e.g. It is okay for a militant jihadist to marry a non-Muslim or to behave like a non-Muslim so their true agenda will not be suspected. Also, the 9/11 hijackers visited strip clubs and bars during their off-times while taking classes in the U.S. to fly airplanes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the White House. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Yassine, are you using any of these strategies in your replies? Since you’re scholars teach that these things are okay, how can I be sure if your reply is genuine? On the contrast, in Judaism and Christianity, let’s see what the Bible has to say about lying… Proverbs 19:5 (NKJV) A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies will not escape. Proverbs 19:9 (NKJV) A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies will perish. Psalm 101:7 (NKJV) He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who tells lies shall not continue in my presence. Proverbs 12:19 (NKJV) The truthful lip shall be established forever, But a lying tongue is but for a moment. Luke 16:10 (NKJV) He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. James 3:14 (NKJV) But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. Proverbs 12:5 (NKJV) The thoughts of the righteous are right, But the counsels of the wicked are deceitful. Psalm 34:13 (NKJV) Keep your tongue from evil, And your lips from speaking deceit. Exodus 20:16 (NKJV) “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” Revelation 21:8 (NKJV) “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1. What are the verses in the Quran that teach that lying is wrong, and what are the verses in the Quran that command against lying? * * * * * * I’M STILL WAITING * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 2. For which Quran verses did you just provide the context/explain? Please properly cite the verses and put the explanation below them. In this way, I can learn from you and your beliefs. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 2 3. I’m still waiting for your definition of “innocent people”, no muruna. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 4 4. I’m still waiting for Quran verses that command you to love your enemies AND your neighbor instead of solely judgements against treating other Muslims poorly. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 5 5. Read Matthew 20:1-16 and tell me the meaning. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=ERV-AR <— If Arabic is your first language, this link will be an easy read. Tell me how this story is fair to the workers, and what the wages represent. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 3 6. Then read Luke 15:11-32. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=ERV-AR Tell me how this story is fair to the older son, and who the father represents. NUMBER OF TIMES ASKED NOW = 3
. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their DEEDS 
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Elixir of life <3 